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Ragora
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15: December 15, 2014, 07:12:58 PM »
Thyth, while legally you have an argument, sociologically, that was then, and this is now. Now is the age of freeware. Now is the age of opensource. I'm not saying it's not their right, I'm saying it's not cool.

Aside from Cry Engine and Unreal Engine (well, their source isn't even free anyway!) I don't think much has changed. I realize you're talking about mods, but "the age of freeware" implies a global application of FOSS principles. The large companies with closed source, non-free paradigms still hold the reigns, after all.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 08:11:38 PM by Ragora »

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Supposedly Einstein
Thyth
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16: December 15, 2014, 11:16:38 PM »
Even free and open source software requires respecting the property and creative rights of its authors.

Developing free (as in libre) software should always, and will always be a choice. TribesNext is not free software, but I'm sure you already knew that when you read and accepted our end user license agreement. We wrote the software, we run the match making and community management servers, and we make it available without cost, but you should be under no delusion that what we built belongs to you or some nebulous social "Tribes community".

I'd hate to live in whatever asinine utopia you're imagining, where creative individuals have a moral (or legal) obligation to give away their work without control or compensation. You have no right to demand that kind of moral code, and no right to demand others create things for your benefit. If anything, the long term consequences of that kind of insanity should be obvious: nobody with skills worth a damn would ever build anything to be co-opted by people who believe what you seem to, and any society built upon this kind of thievery would eat itself or be crushed by more enlightened nations.

How the fuck did people get so entitled?

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GeEkOfWiReS1097
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17: December 17, 2014, 10:19:29 AM »
Thyth, while legally you have an argument, sociologically, that was then, and this is now. Now is the age of freeware. Now is the age of opensource. I'm not saying it's not their right, I'm saying it's not cool.
It's not the age of anything. There's proprietary and there's open source.

The only exception is probably the recent "Mojang-Microsoft Crisis" that the entire Minecraft community has had to deal with where someone slamming the project that they worked on with a DMCA Notice and has resulted in almost anything in Minecraft's modding world to be released under the MIT License. Yes, many people choose to provide their source for things. The people who designed and wrote Renegades simply didn't wish to provide their source code. There are probably a few others that felt the need to go the same route in Tribes 2 modding; others may not have; I wasn't here ten years ago to witness anything. My father was but he only played Tribes 2 Classic... so I can't get any kind of info from him.

Back on topic now I guess. People have their own beliefs that they hold over certain matters and reasons that they can use to back it up. At the end of the day, their opinion on what to do for release is all that matters.

EDIT:

Quote from: Thyth
Even free and open source software requires respecting the property and creative rights of its authors.

Developing free (as in libre) software should always, and will always be a choice. TribesNext is not free software, but I'm sure you already knew that when you read and accepted our end user license agreement. We wrote the software, we run the match making and community management servers, and we make it available without cost, but you should be under no delusion that what we built belongs to you or some nebulous social "Tribes community".

I'd hate to live in whatever asinine utopia you're imagining, where creative individuals have a moral (or legal) obligation to give away their work without control or compensation. You have no right to demand that kind of moral code, and no right to demand others create things for your benefit. If anything, the long term consequences of that kind of insanity should be obvious: nobody with skills worth a damn would ever build anything to be co-opted by people who believe what you seem to, and any society built upon this kind of thievery would eat itself or be crushed by more enlightened nations.

How the fuck did people get so entitled?

I don't know Thyth.

What Thyth is saying is right and it shouldn't be to hard (no offense) to understand that. There is no sociological issue with it. You can go to any length you want to provide software and not the source. No source code? Contact the creator of the project and pray that they have free time OR still have the source. I know in the time I've joined Tribes alone (2012?), I've reformatted my primary hard drive thrice. Windows 7 -> Windows 8 -> Back to Windows 7 -> Windows 10 (uhh... thanks Windows Update) -> Windows 8.1. That source code might not even exist anymore and you'll have to see about a disassembler for the compiled code.

Quote from: Blakhart
Yeah with dso mods created prior to tn you're likely fooched.


Basically, the end of all of this is that someone decided it be best not to release their source code for a mod.

EDIT #2:
Free Software != Open source in EVERY case either.

Microsoft released a new version of Visual Studio called "Visual Studio Community 2013." It's free, but AFAIK, it follows the Microsoft pattern of "release this software... not the source code."
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 02:01:49 PM by GeEkOfWiReS1097 »

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rJay
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18: December 17, 2014, 05:59:02 PM »
............ guys

I never said you were under any obligation or that it shouldn't be a choice. I never hinted that it shouldn't be a choice. I'm honestly quite surprised it offended you so much. I never ever intended that, and further, I never hinted TribesNext wasn't your's.

Bottom line: I like opensource better

That's all. I never meant that everyone everywhere should go by my opinions and likes.

Romans 1:16
Thyth
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19: December 17, 2014, 08:55:06 PM »
The only problem is, he doesn't own or have rights to his work, since the game is free
I never said you were under any obligation or that it shouldn't be a choice. I never hinted that it shouldn't be a choice.
Those two quotes are at odds. You either own the rights to your work and can choose how it is used by others, or it doesn't belong to you and you get no say.

I take no offense, I'm just unequivocal that your first statement (that I originally quoted) is utterly wrong, and that I vehemently disagree with the philosophical implication that someone producing a creative product somehow doesn't get (or loses) rights to it.

I also use the term "free software" to mean it in the Richard Stallman sense of the 4 software freedoms, or in the more pithy: "free as in freedom". There's also "without cost", which doesn't imply the 4 freedoms... like "free as in beer". Since the English language makes poor distinction between these two concepts, I find it preferable to refer to the two categories as "libre" (same etymology as "liberty") and "gratis", respectively.

TribesNext is gratis, but not libre software. We do include a substantial quantity of its source code as part of the product that you download, but you do not have permission to reuse it (which, incidentally, was chosen so that people could evaluate the security claims I was making in 2008 without giving a ready to fragment system to V2 or EWO, who had insinuated that they may use it to create a parallel/incompatible account system). A closed source mod that you can download and run for free is similar.

Incidentally, the Tribes 2 end user license agreement attempts to stipulate that you don't retain the commercial rights to any modifications you develop for the game. The Minecraft modding restrictions imposed by Mojang/Microsoft are also similar. (With IANAL disclaimer...) If either of these terms were challenged legally in the United States, they would not stand -- there are Berne convention, fair use, and first sale doctrine legal precedents that would limit Dynamix/Sierra or Mojang/Microsoft from enforcing those terms. These legal structures are precisely those that allow TribesNext itself to operate in the clear (provided you follow some very carefully constructed processes). I don't have any vested interest in the Minecraft modding legal wonkery, but if I did, I'd make sure to get their dubious terms struck down and set a solid precedent for the future.

If people are folding to DMCA notices in this situation, that's only because they don't have the resources to mount a legal defense -- if they did, they'd win.

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rJay
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20: December 18, 2014, 10:48:03 AM »
You're correct.  Lips sealed

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Phantom139
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21: December 18, 2014, 04:24:07 PM »
The only problem is, he doesn't own or have rights to his work, since the game is free, and not only that, but doing that is against everything real modders stand for.
This is so wrong on so many levels. You always own rights to your creative works, which are retained until 50 to 70 years after the creator's death. This applies to literature, art, software, et cetra. Creators have a right to control the terms under which others can benefit from that creative work, be those terms including a price tag, or other additional limitations (provided they don't impinge on fair use).

A mod maker is completely within their rights to produce a proprietary mod. This could be strongly enforced by only running the mod on their own servers, or more weakly by distributing a compiled version only. Being indignant about how a programmer doesn't have rights, or invoking a no-true-Scotsman argument (which is a logical fallacy, by the way) is patronizing and insulting, and you should do better.

Regardless, however, you're not likely to get source code to Renegades mod from the authors any time soon -- ambitious individuals could pursue development of a DSO disassembler and decompiler if they really want source. Secondly, there's not enough information in this thread to determine the precise cause for UEs when hosting in this configuration. I asked Maiwand to test a couple things out when he was asking questions on IRC, and it looks like GeEkOfWiReS1097 was able to get it working in a dedicated server configuration, so there is some other factor (in terms of installed scripts, maps, networking) causing the UE other than just the mod.

Thyth's absolutely right here rJay. Learn from my mistake, just because something looks cool and you think you have a free ticket to it, doesn't make it so. If the author of a specific item wants to keep it under his control without fear of someone else taking it, then they have direct rights by law, to keep it that way. Not everything in the world has a free ticket to an open source license, otherwise nobody would want to publish anything new, because then someone else could come along and just snatch it up and call it their own.

The exact reasoning applies to why I kept my PGD Connect code .dso'd until all but recently.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 04:25:46 PM by Phantom139 »

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GeEkOfWiReS1097
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22: December 18, 2014, 04:58:16 PM »
...

The exact reasoning applies to why I kept my PGD Connect code .dso'd until all but recently.
But that's different because it's the underlying system for the networking to your site, is it not? It's that circumstance where keeping source behind closed doors benefits the community rather than hurt it.

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Blakhart
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23: December 18, 2014, 05:17:32 PM »
How to Determine Whether a Work is in the Public Domain

Dennis S. Karjala
Professor of Law
Arzona State University

For any work published prior to 1978 (with proper copyright (©) notice), copyright lasted for an initial term of 28 years, renewable in the 28th year at first for an additional 28 years, then (with the 1976 Copyright Act) for an additional 47 years, and finally (with the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998) for an additional 67 years. If a work published prior to 1964 was not formally renewed, it entered the public domain when the initial 28-year term expired. (For works published after 1963, renewal became automatic in 1992.) If the copyright was renewed, the term was thus 75 years from the year of publication (expiring on Dec. 31 of the 75th year following the initial publication) until the Sonny Bono act extended this to 95 years.
http://www.public.asu.edu/~dkarjala/publicdomain/SearchC-R.html

cough
Ragora
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24: December 18, 2014, 10:03:01 PM »
...

The exact reasoning applies to why I kept my PGD Connect code .dso'd until all but recently.
But that's different because it's the underlying system for the networking to your site, is it not? It's that circumstance where keeping source behind closed doors benefits the community rather than hurt it.

That's irrelevant as to whether or not you have the right to distribute any of your creations as such. You do, regardless of if it's some core system or not. Therefore if you so desire to make a 'Hello World' implementation closed source, then you can.

As to it being "socially acceptable" to make something closed source, it is, provided that the software that's being closed sourced is providing meaningful functionality and any open source alternatives are not as good or are better. You'd look like an idiot in the former case and the latter case is just open source competition.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 10:09:51 PM by Ragora »

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Supposedly Einstein
GeEkOfWiReS1097
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25: December 21, 2014, 06:53:57 PM »
...

The exact reasoning applies to why I kept my PGD Connect code .dso'd until all but recently.
But that's different because it's the underlying system for the networking to your site, is it not? It's that circumstance where keeping source behind closed doors benefits the community rather than hurt it.

That's irrelevant as to whether or not you have the right to distribute any of your creations as such. You do, regardless of if it's some core system or not. Therefore if you so desire to make a 'Hello World' implementation closed source, then you can.

As to it being "socially acceptable" to make something closed source, it is, provided that the software that's being closed sourced is providing meaningful functionality and any open source alternatives are not as good or are better. You'd look like an idiot in the former case and the latter case is just open source competition.
I never said that this was relevant to the question of rights to distribute your creations. I feel it that it be rather obvious that anything that is yours would basically mean you get distribute it how you feel best to distribute it... regardless of reasoning. All I said was that the network communication between the ranking of his mods to his website would be better fitted closed source to prevent cheaters from abusing it and allowing the rest of the players to play fairly in peace.

I'm sorry that I stumbled a little out of the bounds of the discussion at hand.

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Ragora
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26: December 21, 2014, 10:54:51 PM »
...

The exact reasoning applies to why I kept my PGD Connect code .dso'd until all but recently.
But that's different because it's the underlying system for the networking to your site, is it not? It's that circumstance where keeping source behind closed doors benefits the community rather than hurt it.

That's irrelevant as to whether or not you have the right to distribute any of your creations as such. You do, regardless of if it's some core system or not. Therefore if you so desire to make a 'Hello World' implementation closed source, then you can.

As to it being "socially acceptable" to make something closed source, it is, provided that the software that's being closed sourced is providing meaningful functionality and any open source alternatives are not as good or are better. You'd look like an idiot in the former case and the latter case is just open source competition.
I never said that this was relevant to the question of rights to distribute your creations. I feel it that it be rather obvious that anything that is yours would basically mean you get distribute it how you feel best to distribute it... regardless of reasoning. All I said was that the network communication between the ranking of his mods to his website would be better fitted closed source to prevent cheaters from abusing it and allowing the rest of the players to play fairly in peace.

I'm sorry that I stumbled a little out of the bounds of the discussion at hand.

For a backend like that it's only pertinent if you have critical bugs laying around, but the good thing about open source is that you have many eyes looking and a good bit of hands either fixing or reporting.

For an anti-cheat system, if you did all of it the serverside and had a proper client/server model with other mitigation techniques on the server end then it still comes to down to what was said above. Critical flaws like that would be discovered either way, anyway. Hiding your source code because clientside mitigation is insufficient and hoping it'll keep the baddies away long enough would be a bad approach to it. So I'm inclined to say that if making a game closed source is a security precaution then it's probably because there's something wrong with the implementation and by doing that, said details would likely fall on the wayside as then you feel safe behind your closed source barrier.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 11:02:43 PM by Ragora »

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Supposedly Einstein
Blakhart
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27: December 22, 2014, 01:07:29 PM »
Bugs_ in t1 developed an hm and dll (there are several t1 dlls about that have various features of hm but are much more stable and less laggy than hm and no they don't work as compiled on t2) anticheat that is serverside only and can't be defeated. It checks to see if a client actually has a player or game object in scope and then reveals it or conceals it in the gamestate sent to that client. What t2 needs is a command sent by the server to all players to set timescale to default each gamestate refresh or whatever more than t2 needs anti-hm2. Also, I think what killed dt is the baddies got enought details to circumvent it. Also, with the dt consensus anticheat idea, if every client is cheating all votes will say the cheats are legit.
Thyth
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28: December 22, 2014, 09:00:58 PM »
Defense Turret was beaten because there are two constant "escape hatch" codes that it uses if you failed paired consensus more than 5 times, or were otherwise not paired with another player (e.g. odd number of players connected). It's probably derived from hashing some part of the T2 binary (since there were different values for Windows and Linux), so the cheater-majority breaking consensus for legitimate players won't actually happen. The downside, of course, is that you can send this constant code on every challenge, and never be marked as cheating. The DT server script couldn't do more sophisticated challenge/responses against the client, because it was just a T2 script and didn't have the ability to hash process memory in the way the clients did.

Amusingly, the DT server core DSO was really just a script that ran a couple of debugging countermeasures (checking if eval was hooked via package, and disabling console trace) before feeding an encrypted script (also containing some anti-debugging features) into eval. If you hooked console trace before loading the DT server scripts (such that it ignored trace(0)), or if you patched the eval function in your process memory (there's a built in eval echo that's turned off), it would cheerfully dump the source code to the runtime anti-cheat mediator script to the console log. If it had just been a plain DSO with smaller scale obfuscation, it would have been way harder to produce a DT client emulator.

Of course, even without the "backdoor" code, it wouldn't have been too hard to use stupid tricks like running a slaved DT enabled T2 client in a VM connected to a modified version of the DT server script. You could write an emulator that would forward DT challenges to a network service, which would pass them on to this slaved/clean/VM instance.

Solving timescale properly just requires someone to finish the patches to the network message processing code that I started about 2 years ago. I wrote two patch versions that successfully eliminated timescale, but unfortunately introduced problems for legit clients (due to the way T2 handles network jitter). I had a 3rd patch version in progress to apply a bit of filtering to fix the problems experienced by legit clients, but it was never completed. My notes, and two existing patches are available on request.

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rJay
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29: December 23, 2014, 12:42:08 PM »
And people really go to all that trouble to cheat in a 14 year old game? Damn.

Romans 1:16
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