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Author Topic: How to deal with rape train?
bugmenot
Nugget
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March 10, 2009, 02:56:59 AM »
I'm a new player and i can't figure it out, how to deal with 1-3 people constantly coming to our base in juggernaut armor and killing our gens along whith anything else they see. Killing 1 is not much of a problem, although by the time I repair the gens he's usually skiing back to our base. When there's 2 or more, gens pretty much stay down the whole game. They don't even bother to bring an inv station.

I'm already trying to be a bit less of an idiot by not bringing them repair kits but that's not nearly enough.
There are few solutions i've heard/thought of, like

1) having a defence, or teamwork
...ha...ha...

2) being a cloaker with shocklance inside base
effectivness varies with skill of the opposition. After a while they start mortaring every corner, or bringing shield packs, or making the basement an improvized pool filled with plasma. They tend to spin around and stand back to the wall too. They usually live long enough to fire mortar at our gens a few times, which is more than they can take.

3) finding suitable corners and camping with satchel pack
on the positive side, satchel can be placed so that it's not seen untill it's "almost" too late, and survival rate is very low. But it does tend to get destroyed with mortars after few successfull uses.
Most effective way i've found for a noob like me.

4) pretending to be solo LightDefence and killing them on their way to our base
Lights do seem to have advantage over juggernauts in the open... but with my skilllevel it's 50/50 at best. And doesn't work if there is more than 1 rapist.

5) Leaving the gens down and using deployable inv stations and MPB
in my eyes this is very tempting. They can't rape gens for points if they're already down. People don't seem to use CC so sensors being down doesn't bother most people. The only point of turrets seems to be delaying shrieks by few seconds as they shoot them from out of range.
I'm however doubtfull team i'm on would see it this way, and there's always a newbie like me that thinks repairing is a good way to help.

Ideas?
DarkBasilisk
Nugget
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1: March 10, 2009, 07:12:36 AM »
2) and 4) are typically the best options, with 4) often being more used. You get better at it. It's rare for me *not* to win a battle vs an HO as a light at this point. Btw, shocklance is more for suprise attacks or if you're low on ammo. If you use your disk on a unshielded heavy and keep medium range, you have a VERY good chance of winning.

This is why as I've said before, the proper protocol for an HO encountering a light in the field is to try and get to your attack point faster, NOT try and fight the light. If you'll notice this is what most of the more seasoned heavy players do.
thaen
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2: March 10, 2009, 08:12:59 AM »
as heavy put an invo in the base for repairs, put a couple turrets out to signal the arrival of their HO. put out some mines also, probably around 4-6. get in shield pack and mine disc them or spam grenades around the corner at where they are coming from. if they get the gen throw your shield pack by the generator, get a repair pack from the invo and repair. if another guy comes in throw the repair pack and pick up your shield pack and kill him

edit: switch packs quickly by doing ctrl-numpad 0-4
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 08:23:21 AM by thaen »
Kryand
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3: March 10, 2009, 07:58:50 PM »
1) having a defence, or teamwork
...ha...ha...
Defense would have to be really good to stop a HO train. And I don't mean "put a lot of players on defense". I mean that everyone you do have on defense needs to be really good at it. If they aren't good at it, then they would be much better off attacking the enemy base and trying to kill the heavies as they suit or trying to blow up said base. Defense is definitely a quality over quantity position.

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2) being a cloaker with shocklance inside base
effectivness varies with skill of the opposition. After a while they start mortaring every corner, or bringing shield packs, or making the basement an improvized pool filled with plasma. They tend to spin around and stand back to the wall too. They usually live long enough to fire mortar at our gens a few times, which is more than they can take.
This is an absolutely horrible idea. If you can even get a loadout, it should be either heavy armor so that you can go HO to the enemy base and stop them there, or it should have discs, mines, and possibly hand grenades. Use of those weapons can kill even a shielded heavy in most cases very quickly. Chaingun is also really great, but it takes a while to do them a lot of damage. Mine-disc is the best option by far. Chaingun should be used most of the time if you have no mines. Some players like to use the shocklance outside with an epack to kill them before they enter the base, but most players like this are only fooling themselves if they think they are good enough with lance to use it instead of mine-disc and chaingun. If the HO you are killing are really bad, then shocklance might work really well. But, against good HO, I guarantee you will only get one shot with it before they rape your base and/or kill you. And it most likely won't be a backlance.

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3) finding suitable corners and camping with satchel pack
on the positive side, satchel can be placed so that it's not seen untill it's "almost" too late, and survival rate is very low. But it does tend to get destroyed with mortars after few successfull uses.
Most effective way i've found for a noob like me.
This is quite possibly the worst idea ever. If you do this, you are preventing yourself from learning to do anything else.

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4) pretending to be solo LightDefence and killing them on their way to our base
Lights do seem to have advantage over juggernauts in the open... but with my skilllevel it's 50/50 at best. And doesn't work if there is more than 1 rapist.
Lights don't have an advantage over heavies at all. A good shielded heavy could take on 2-3 lights at the same time. It's just that the duel style required is completely different, and most people are accustomed to dueling in light, and can't duel right in heavy.

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5) Leaving the gens down and using deployable inv stations and MPB
in my eyes this is very tempting. They can't rape gens for points if they're already down. People don't seem to use CC so sensors being down doesn't bother most people. The only point of turrets seems to be delaying shrieks by few seconds as they shoot them from out of range.
I'm however doubtfull team i'm on would see it this way, and there's always a newbie like me that thinks repairing is a good way to help.
If your team has inventories deployed/an MPB, then this is definitely a great option. The only problem is, once they go down, you can't get more of them until the base comes back. So while it may work for a while, it most likely won't last very long. Offensive players should definitely ignore the gens and do what they can to get back on offense as fast as possible. Defensive players will probably need to get the base back up sometime soon.

I play heavy offense quite a bit and camp the enemy base with a shield pack. The thing that annoys me most with this are people who come at me with blasters. If they use any other weapon, chances are I will kill them before they even get through my shield. Blaster on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about that. Every blaster shot brings me a little closer to death. So long as you make sure I'm not getting repair kits to regain the lost health, constantly respawning and shooting me with a blaster is guaranteed to kill me eventually - probably faster than any other method available to you if you can't get a loadout. But keep in mind, even after you kill me, if my base is up, I will be back in very short order. So, your team needs to expend some effort in keeping my base down, or else the HO train will simply continue.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 08:01:08 PM by Kryand »

Abstract
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4: March 10, 2009, 08:47:07 PM »

I play heavy offense quite a bit and camp the enemy base with a shield pack. The thing that annoys me most with this are people who come at me with blasters. If they use any other weapon, chances are I will kill them before they even get through my shield. Blaster on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about that. Every blaster shot brings me a little closer to death. So long as you make sure I'm not getting repair kits to regain the lost health, constantly respawning and shooting me with a blaster is guaranteed to kill me eventually - probably faster than any other method available to you if you can't get a loadout. But keep in mind, even after you kill me, if my base is up, I will be back in very short order. So, your team needs to expend some effort in keeping my base down, or else the HO train will simply continue.

Would you say blaster over ELF/(mine disc/plasma/cg)?

I am: DisChord81/KillMachine/Atlas/Abstract, in that order.
PROJECTILE
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5: March 10, 2009, 09:30:27 PM »

I play heavy offense quite a bit and camp the enemy base with a shield pack. The thing that annoys me most with this are people who come at me with blasters. If they use any other weapon, chances are I will kill them before they even get through my shield. Blaster on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about that. Every blaster shot brings me a little closer to death. So long as you make sure I'm not getting repair kits to regain the lost health, constantly respawning and shooting me with a blaster is guaranteed to kill me eventually - probably faster than any other method available to you if you can't get a loadout. But keep in mind, even after you kill me, if my base is up, I will be back in very short order. So, your team needs to expend some effort in keeping my base down, or else the HO train will simply continue.

Would you say blaster over ELF/(mine disc/plasma/cg)?
a couple points:
you shouldn't be using elf at all, blaster would be a lot better.  If you can suit up and get an elf though, you might as well suit up in light shield and try to mine disc/nade them while you're at it.  mine disc and nades are generally the best way to clear ho out of a base. 
try to toss your health kit before you go into retake the base.  it helps the campers more than it helps you.
For the record, i disagree with kryand on a couple of things: about the blaster,  i'll only use it if they're low on health, but i typically just spam hand nades and discs.  Secondly, i don't think the defense generally should be the ones helping retake the base, and i don't think you really want the offense getting back on offense as soon as possible in many circumstances.  the defense, particularly the ld, should not be wasting time trying to retake their base; they should be watching the flag.  The HO for your team, when they die, should usually try to help your hd/farmers bring the gen back up.  while i understand the feeling of urgency to quickly head out to offense, lest the other team bring even more pressure, usually it's counterproductive, as on many maps, a team of ill-equipped lights (or worse yet, lights in spawn) will get chewed up by laser rifles and turrets.  If they are consistently holding the gens for periods of time while your offense is struggling to stay alive on their side of the field, it unfortunately is usually a result of being just outclassed (or terribly uncoordinated with the rest of your team).  better ho will simply stay alive a lot longer and will be a lot more consistent and effective at keeping a base down, and likewise, a bad hd will let them in and allow them to camp it far more often
bugmenot
Nugget
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6: March 11, 2009, 02:06:01 AM »
as heavy put an invo in the base for repairs, put a couple turrets out to signal the arrival of their HO. put out some mines also, probably around 4-6. get in shield pack and mine disc them or spam grenades around the corner at where they are coming from. if they get the gen throw your shield pack by the generator, get a repair pack from the invo and repair. if another guy comes in throw the repair pack and pick up your shield pack and kill him

edit: switch packs quickly by doing ctrl-numpad 0-4
I have to admit I mostly ignored idea of using heavy(read as mortar) indoors, because of the friendly kill factor. It will definetely give me more alive time to deal with the heavys, I'll just have to see if I'm able to kill them before they kill gens if they choose to ignore me...
I do put mines, mostly to "detect" cloakers, as farming sensors in explosion rich environment can be time consuming. I'll definitely set the keys for quick pack changing now. I used to think loadouts were enough, but they aren't.

1) having a defence, or teamwork
...ha...ha...
Defense would have to be really good to stop a HO train. And I don't mean "put a lot of players on defense". I mean that everyone you do have on defense needs to be really good at it. If they aren't good at it, then they would be much better off attacking the enemy base and trying to kill the heavies as they suit or trying to blow up said base. Defense is definitely a quality over quantity position.
The way I see it, neither team has dedicated defence. Defence relies on high respawn rates, and the fact that most folks find their opponents somewhere between bases. The counter-raping is happening and is dealt with, same as in our base. I'm mostly looking for a way to stop it alone(mostly), before the gens are killed. This way they might consider other means of gaining points, and I won't have to see gens I just repaired go down with the next wave.

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2) being a cloaker with shocklance inside base...
This is an absolutely horrible idea. If you can even get a loadout, it should be either heavy armor so that you can go HO to the enemy base and stop them there, or it should have discs, mines, and possibly hand grenades. Use of those weapons can kill even a shielded heavy in most cases very quickly. Chaingun is also really great, but it takes a while to do them a lot of damage. Mine-disc is the best option by far. Chaingun should be used most of the time if you have no mines. Some players like to use the shocklance outside with an epack to kill them before they enter the base, but most players like this are only fooling themselves if they think they are good enough with lance to use it instead of mine-disc and chaingun. If the HO you are killing are really bad, then shocklance might work really well. But, against good HO, I guarantee you will only get one shot with it before they rape your base and/or kill you. And it most likely won't be a backlance.
In this case shocklance is only considered to be good for the instakill from behind factor. Gens can take about 3 mortar shots. Killing a heavy, that proritizes gens over players, in that span of time with regular weaponry is a bit problematic for me. Granted, I still forget to mine-disc most of the time, but that will come with time and might change the way i see things

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3) finding suitable corners and camping with satchel pack
on the positive side, satchel can be placed so that it's not seen untill it's "almost" too late, and survival rate is very low. But it does tend to get destroyed with mortars after few successfull uses.
Most effective way i've found for a noob like me.
This is quite possibly the worst idea ever. If you do this, you are preventing yourself from learning to do anything else.
Not quite true. Even if map allows effective satchel use, they are easily destroyed(and sometimes avoided) leaving me with mines, grenades and disc, which i usually have to use against scouts and assaults.

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4) pretending to be solo LightDefence and killing them on their way to our base
Lights do seem to have advantage over juggernauts in the open... but with my skilllevel it's 50/50 at best. And doesn't work if there is more than 1 rapist.
Lights don't have an advantage over heavies at all. A good shielded heavy could take on 2-3 lights at the same time. It's just that the duel style required is completely different, and most people are accustomed to dueling in light, and can't duel right in heavy.
not sure here, but the keypoint was "in the open". Lights have better manuveraility and can dodge(or at least try) outdoors, whereas indoors they can't avoid splashdamage

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5) Leaving the gens down and using deployable inv stations and MPB...
If your team has inventories deployed/an MPB, then this is definitely a great option. The only problem is, once they go down, you can't get more of them until the base comes back. So while it may work for a while, it most likely won't last very long. Offensive players should definitely ignore the gens and do what they can to get back on offense as fast as possible. Defensive players will probably need to get the base back up sometime soon.
I don't think that clearing a base and getting gens up for a minute that is needed for redeployment is difficult, especially with all the wannabe heavys that can't get loadout. I could be wrong. This is more of a "what if" thing anyway, that unfortunately won't do much even if implemented.

The thing that annoys me most with this are people who come at me with blasters.
Depending on the map heavys can switch to repair pack, and blaster damage/fire rate make me think that it'd be faster to disc the shield and heavy, even when taking deaths/respawn times into account. Unless it's a place that allows no aim ricochet.


Question: Does plasma bypass shieldpack?
I recall reading it in the manual, but that was base...
Kryand
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7: March 11, 2009, 05:10:36 AM »
The way I see it, neither team has dedicated defence. Defence relies on high respawn rates, and the fact that most folks find their opponents somewhere between bases. The counter-raping is happening and is dealt with, same as in our base. I'm mostly looking for a way to stop it alone(mostly), before the gens are killed. This way they might consider other means of gaining points, and I won't have to see gens I just repaired go down with the next wave.
Well, when you put it like that, I guess it's different. My post was mostly in regard to team-based advice in a 50 player game of Goon Haven. If you plan on defending the gens solo and not worrying about anything else, then Thaen's advice is probably the best thing you can do.

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In this case shocklance is only considered to be good for the instakill from behind factor. Gens can take about 3 mortar shots. Killing a heavy, that proritizes gens over players, in that span of time with regular weaponry is a bit problematic for me. Granted, I still forget to mine-disc most of the time, but that will come with time and might change the way i see things
It definitely doesn't take 3 mortars to kill a gen. It takes 1 mortar, 1 mine-nade, and 1 additional hand nade all thrown in quick succession. They will probably shoot more than that just in case, but they shouldn't have to. If the heavies you see actually take 3 mortars to kill the gens and ignore you while they do it, then you could try shocklance I guess. But really, the effectiveness of the shocklance was intentionally reduced in classic. You should really work on the other weapons non-stop until you get them down.

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not sure here, but the keypoint was "in the open". Lights have better manuveraility and can dodge(or at least try) outdoors, whereas indoors they can't avoid splashdamage
Like I said, heavy dueling requires a completely different style - one that doesn't rely on maneuverability.

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I don't think that clearing a base and getting gens up for a minute that is needed for redeployment is difficult, especially with all the wannabe heavys that can't get loadout. I could be wrong. This is more of a "what if" thing anyway, that unfortunately won't do much even if implemented.
That depends on the HO, but in many cases I suppose it's not that difficult.

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Depending on the map heavys can switch to repair pack, and blaster damage/fire rate make me think that it'd be faster to disc the shield and heavy, even when taking deaths/respawn times into account. Unless it's a place that allows no aim ricochet.
If the heavy switches to repair pack, then by all means disc and nade him. Most of the time though, said heavy won't have time to do that unless your team decides to hold off and not go fight him. His shield pack, on the other hand, regenerates much faster. Combining the damage done by blaster with how slowly he can repair (if at all), and combining the damage done with disc to the power of a shield pack, the blaster usually comes out on top. Now, if you are really good at indoor dueling with discs and nades against a heavy, then that's a different story. But in my experience, the average person trying to retake a base just flies into the room shooting and dies in a few seconds. If their weapon of choice is a disc, they usually don't do anything to me. If they use a blaster, they usually get a couple hits in every time.

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Question: Does plasma bypass shieldpack?
I recall reading it in the manual, but that was base...
No.

Abstract
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8: March 11, 2009, 08:38:03 AM »
Some great advice here.  Good advice delivery as well.  Thank you for your knowledge.

On a side note, sometimes when I'm on the rape train, I'll load up an ELF to drain gen shields, it only takes 3 or 4 shots with plasma after that, and they're done.  This helps me save ammo for when I'm getting stormed by the D police.

I am: DisChord81/KillMachine/Atlas/Abstract, in that order.
teratos
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9: March 11, 2009, 09:58:10 AM »
This thread is silly.

YOU CAN'T STOP THE RAPE TRAIN.

"Enjoy the rest of your sad elitist life as I will pursue helping gamers in this gamer generation, and perhaps you will develop an unstretchable itch in the knowledge that people like you mean very little to me, or anyone else with strong care in anything that they pursue."
 - sgtvindetta
Fling
Nugget³
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10: March 11, 2009, 01:35:01 PM »
I think one of the most important things HD can do in the face of a HO train is NOT repair.  If the train is such that you can't repair, get suited up and get back in posistion to prevent them from getting inside in the first place, then I say the step to drop is not repair.  You keep your shield pack, and you stop the heavies from getting inside the base(this is the single best method of stopping the train).  You let your offense do the repairing.  If your team needs the base up they will come and repair.  You just stop the HO.
Fling
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11: March 11, 2009, 01:37:01 PM »
Some great advice here.  Good advice delivery as well.  Thank you for your knowledge.

On a side note, sometimes when I'm on the rape train, I'll load up an ELF to drain gen shields, it only takes 3 or 4 shots with plasma after that, and they're done.  This helps me save ammo for when I'm getting stormed by the D police.
Every gen dies to 1 mortar and 2 hand grenades.  It may not explode, but it will die.  Hopefully, you've posistioned the HD by that point so that he is close to the gens and you can drop a 2nd mortar and grenade at him, and blow him and the gens up.  This is best. 
teratos
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12: March 11, 2009, 01:55:06 PM »
Pointless, you can't stop the HO train.

"Enjoy the rest of your sad elitist life as I will pursue helping gamers in this gamer generation, and perhaps you will develop an unstretchable itch in the knowledge that people like you mean very little to me, or anyone else with strong care in anything that they pursue."
 - sgtvindetta
Alviss
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13: March 11, 2009, 03:21:17 PM »
If i notice a rape train (lol, love the name) of that magnitude, i go on HD, and just own any poor bastard that enters my gen room.

The element of surprise is your greatest asset as a HD, use plasma and spam nades/mines, it's always enough to bring down their "usually small" shield-pack energy reserve.
If they try to withdraw, lob a mortar directly behind them, or at the roof above their head, then forget about them, because they're a goner.

Also having a hidden Dep Invo station is a good idea.

Tribes2 never left. It was you who was lost.
retep
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14: March 14, 2009, 10:28:00 PM »
If it gets bad enough, I'll try and hop on a Shrike (using an enemy's abandoned plane in needed) and head over to their base. If I am lucky, I'll see the next HAVOC getting ready to go and I can shoot it down. This give the home base a couple extra minutes to get back on it's feet.
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