I think scripts and modifications are cheats.

Ok now before people start getting upset, no I do not think that everyone who is better then me is using a cheat, and since playing tribes again I haven't seen something so blatant I initiated a player kick vote. But when I get mid air mine disked several times in one game it does make me wonder. Now I do not actually know much about scripts so if anyone could post some info on some of the more commonly used ones I'd appreciate it. But here is my main point. I think that any script of modification that gives a player an unfair advantage over others is an outright cheat. Also I consider things like modified mortar crosshairs to be a cheat. Now listen carefully, I AM NOT ACCUSING SKILLED PLAYERS OF CHEATING! But I would find it hard to believe that no one on tribes is using these kinds of script or modifications. I would even go as far to say that a simple jump/jet or mine/disk bind script is a cheat. I'll use a dumb analogy. If a NASCAR racer put a nitro tank on his car it would be considered cheating. Why? Because NASCAR is supposed determine the winner by which team has the better driver and pit crew that works together. Not by who has a better car to drive. Same with tribes. The best players should be determined by who actually possesses the most skill, not by who has the better modifications. Oh I do use one script. The one that reminds me to start recording. Does not give me an in game advantage against anyone.

Comments

  • Ok now before people start getting upset, no I do not think that everyone who is better then me is using a cheat, and since playing tribes again I haven't seen something so blatant I initiated a player kick vote. But when I get mid air mine disked several times in one game it does make me wonder. Now I do not actually know much about scripts so if anyone could post some info on some of the more commonly used ones I'd appreciate it. But here is my main point. I think that any script of modification that gives a player an unfair advantage over others is an outright cheat. Also I consider things like modified mortar crosshairs to be a cheat. Now listen carefully, I AM NOT ACCUSING SKILLED PLAYERS OF CHEATING! But I would find it hard to believe that no one on tribes is using these kinds of script or modifications. I would even go as far to say that a simple jump/jet or mine/disk bind script is a cheat. I'll use a dumb analogy. If a NASCAR racer put a nitro tank on his car it would be considered cheating. Why? Because NASCAR is supposed determine the winner by which team has the better driver and pit crew that works together. Not by who has a better car to drive. Same with tribes. The best players should be determined by who actually possesses the most skill, not by who has the better modifications. Oh I do use one script. The one that reminds me to start recording. Does not give me an in game advantage against anyone.

    I think those are some pretty sad examples. When a script is modifying a person's gameplay in a way that allows them to do something humanly impossible (mine on death), I think it's fair to call it a cheat. When it's a script that binds two keys to a single button press, you may as well call anyone using a keyboard and mouse setup that's different from the default a cheat.

    The jump/jet script is pretty sad, but if they want to do it, it's a far cry from cheating. The missile warning script that makes your crosshair flash red gives you a quick lock indicator, but it also provides a way for people who have a hearing disability to detect a locked missile. The autoflare script is borderline, but the downside to it is that it will always use a flare, regardless if it's necessary or not. Mortar reticules are another poor example, since a player could just use a dry erase marker to mark off angles on their screen. I've done this, and it works wonders.

    As for an "unfair advantage", should I turn off my 3d surround sound since it allows me to locate a cloaker much easier than someone with simple stereo? Should everyone reduce their framerate to a constant 20 FPS so that no one has a framerate advantage? Should everyone use the same keyboard and mouse so that no one has more convenient button placement?

    When playing a game on a computer, you have to realize that other players will have an unfair advantage over you. Be it because of hardware, better connectivity, better manual dexterity, or the fact that they'll use a script that you don't want to use... They're going to be capable of doing things that you will be incapable of for various reasons. Suck it up. This is how evolution works. Either adapt, or fail.
  • Wiimote... before you bash him over the head with "evolution"... let's scale it back a bit. It's easy to understand where he's coming from.

    Sev... you have the same concerns as anyone in ANY game where the stock UI isn't quite up-to-snuff and allows script modifications. Think of World of Warcraft... people made scripts that basically clicked things for you or had conditionals that would fire off events based on things that happened to you. Blizzard started blocking code that allowed scripts like that.

    Tribes 2 suffers from similar UI/lack-of-options problems... but Dynamix/Sierra/Whoever isn't around to "police" what is and isn't cheating/exploitative code. So while I completely understand your concern, there's not much that can be done. Just find scripts that enhance the GAME for you (not that many really enhance your ABILITIES). I'd consider an auto-flare script cheating... but I can't do anything to keep someone else from using it.
  • I understand where he's coming from... The problem is that it isn't an "unfair advantage" when the scripts are readily available to anyone. The final decision is up to the player themself, as well as the owner of the server they play on. I personally do no agree with the autoflare script, so I don't use it. If that means someone else is going to have an advantage over me when they ARE using it, so be it.

    I often use missiles, and even with their auto flare scripts, I sometimes kill the player with the missile launcher.
  • Well, you're wrong. Scripts don't help you that much. Most players use various gui modifications and control modification scripts. There's nothing except binding a key to full force mine throw, that's going to help you mine disc people. It's all about experience.
  • This is a little hard to read without some newlines, but I'll give you a reply.
    But when I get mid air mine disked several times in one game it does make me wonder.
    I've never heard of any script that helps players mine disc (short of the max mine throw script which is built into Classic and other MODs).
    Now I do not actually know much about scripts so if anyone could post some info on some of the more commonly used ones I'd appreciate it./quote]
    Most scripts take existing functionality and make it convenient, or perform tedious tasks that help everyone.

    The flag timer scripts count down the seconds until the flag returns so you don't have to calculate off the game clock.
    Some scripts auto-start demos, others allow you to tab out to chat. There are scripts to tell you your current speed, altitude, FPS, and ping.
    There are scripts that quickly switch to third person view and back when you go to an inventory or grab a flag.

    It's nice to be able to customize the game. Not everyone wants the same feature set.
    I think that any script of modification that gives a player an unfair advantage over others is an outright cheat. Also I consider things like modified mortar crosshairs to be a cheat.
    Cheats are defined by the community, but the TWL list is usually a good place to go for the standard. Most scripts are available to everyone, so you can always just download a static rangefinder script for your mortar if you like. You still have to be able to aim.


    [quote author=Sev link=topic=913.msg9651#msg9651 date=1238098174Now listen carefully, I AM NOT ACCUSING SKILLED PLAYERS OF CHEATING! But I would find it hard to believe that no one on tribes is using these kinds of script or modifications.
    Lots of people play with scripts, in fact, the developers of the game built it to work so that players could use scripts. If the developers knowingly build a cheat interface for everyone, is it still cheating?
    I'll use a dumb analogy. If a NASCAR racer put a nitro tank on his car it would be considered cheating. Why? Because NASCAR is supposed determine the winner by which team has the better driver and pit crew that works together. Not by who has a better car to drive.
    That analogy works better for requiring everyone to have the same hardware and ping.
  • I personally use a jump/jet script mostly because my brain doesn't register "jump, then jet" fast enough when I need it the most. The only real advantage it gets me is I use a little less energy when navigating home base, and makes heavy defense marginally easier as a result (since they're SLOW). That's really it. For me it just nets a little more mobility, which I rely on.

    Scripting out mine-discing could cause a problem, because throwing the mine, then shooting it, should take into account your momentum, how far the target is, etc, and automatically mining and discing creates the risk of the disc outpacing the mine, and either killing you or negating its effectiveness.

    Fling makes a good point. Scripts won't get you to MAing every player that crosses your path. Adding an assload of information to your HUD just makes you better informed about the field, but doesn't make you better. Experience does. And if you short-change experience by running scripts that think for you, how good are you ever going to be?

    [Disclaimer] I make no claim of any expertise or good skill whatsoever. If you encounter me in-game, you are far more likely to successfully kill me than I will you.
  • And if you short-change experience by running scripts that think for you, how good are you ever going to be?
    Scripts == Cylons?!

    Joking aside, the only things I'd view as cheats would be anything that aims for you (i.e. HappyMod2) or otherwise accesses those parts of the game that were explicitly locked (read: not script accessible).

    Do some of the scripts become annoying, yes...
    But, any monkey can perform the same thing as the auto-flare or jump & jet scripts.

    Now, when are we getting a post complaining about those annoying voice spammers? :P
  • Well, the mine on death script is the one that annoys me. It's not only a lame attempt at padding your own score, but it's also detrimental to your team. If a server could include some sort of mod that detonates all undeployed mines when someone dies (with no damage), it would solve the problem.
  • I actually also consider jump/jet, mine on death, and auto flares cheats (there are more that I can't think of right this second). Even if jumping before you jet and throwing a flare at lock on are easy to do without scripts... It is still something not designed in the game for a reason.

    It gives an advantage, even if it is only an advantage for the people that NEED them.
  • Well, you're wrong.
    Thread over.
  • I'm sorry you're not very good at tribes :(
    Well, you're wrong.
    Thread over.

    Hear hear.
  • I think scripts are fantastic, and they are the only reason this game survived as long as it did.

    Sweeping generalizations about scripts won't help people take your argument seriously, especially since TribesNext falls into the script/modification category.
  • Heh.

    mystic_1
  • Ok now before people start getting upset, no I do not think that everyone who is better then me is using a cheat, and since playing tribes again I haven't seen something so blatant I initiated a player kick vote. But when I get mid air mine disked several times in one game it does make me wonder. Now I do not actually know much about scripts so if anyone could post some info on some of the more commonly used ones I'd appreciate it. But here is my main point. I think that any script of modification that gives a player an unfair advantage over others is an outright cheat. Also I consider things like modified mortar crosshairs to be a cheat. Now listen carefully, I AM NOT ACCUSING SKILLED PLAYERS OF CHEATING! But I would find it hard to believe that no one on tribes is using these kinds of script or modifications. I would even go as far to say that a simple jump/jet or mine/disk bind script is a cheat. I'll use a dumb analogy. If a NASCAR racer put a nitro tank on his car it would be considered cheating. Why? Because NASCAR is supposed determine the winner by which team has the better driver and pit crew that works together. Not by who has a better car to drive. Same with tribes. The best players should be determined by who actually possesses the most skill, not by who has the better modifications. Oh I do use one script. The one that reminds me to start recording. Does not give me an in game advantage against anyone.

    I've seen both sides of the script equation. I haven't booted up T2 in a bit, but I believe I was script free. When I originally played, I started sans scripts, and moved to them as I moved towards actual team play, where such things were expected.

    The same goes for the example someone else used, World of Warcraft, arenas specifically. It came to a point where to level the playing field in some match-ups, you had to adopt the techniques everyone else was using at the time. Information is power, scripts provide streamlined information.

    With both pairs of shoes having been worn on my feet, I'd say that if you're in for public games, don't even sweat it. If you're in for competition, abide by the rules of the governing body, and adapt what the community does, or invent your own.

    I just wish T2 would work with my 8 button mouse, I'm seriously out of practice of being a multi-key presser.
  • I bound mouse buttons to correspond to keys with my mouse's software in order to use the extra mouse buttons. However, I heard if you activate the "DINPUT MOUSE" checkbox in the control config, you can bind extra mouse buttons normally.
  • Yep, the DINPUT MOUSE box should do it, or you can go to ClientPrefs (pretty sure it's clientprefs) and set MouseEnabled to 1.

    [edit later with better information, this was just off the top of my head]
  • Personally I use

    - jump & jet
    - flag timer, grab notify, auto help call on flag grab
    - Dio Shield hud
    - Hal deployer
    - Hudmover
    - speedhud
    - Mortar & Grenade range reticles
    - Auto 3rd person depending on which vehicle you buy
    - Pilotmode
    - PJ's commander (to spot incoming shrikes/bombers when piloting myself etc)
    - max mine/nade throw
    - and various other ones that don't really impact the game at all like, superstats and whatever


    Unfortunately, I've yet to find a script that would magically increase my skill level from "slightly above suck" to "tolerable".
  • Even if Scripts got banned people would still use software outside of the game to bind keys and such. Xpadder is a good example of a program that allows you to bind multiple keystrokes to a single joystick button.

    When I played Halo PC I had different buttons for different fire rates, so that I could fire the plas pistol and plasma rifle without it overheating by controlling its fire rate.
  • You can't ban scripts and have Tribes.
  • Scriptability (is that evern a word?) is one of the core values, an essence of the Tribes series, save for with Tribes Vengeance which now has like 8 servers up, and maybe 20 players BECAUSE it lacks scriptability. That and working autoaims were made for it before it was released. If Tribes Vengance had been script friendly it would have been a much better game. Anyway, yeah something a simple as a keybind being a cheat... are you crazy? And some things should have been written into the game, far as I am concerned. I would have liked, for instance, to see autopoints in the game by default. If you're in anyone's team sensor view, you get an iff no matter where you are. I mean they made the flag a permanent iff, so why not make it sensor wide? And as to automissile, it's actualy faster to simply hold the fire button down while waiting for the lock tone than it is to use that script.

    If the next Tribes isn't scriptable, modable, it will go the way of Tribes Vengeance.
    If it doesn't have some form of anticheat that works, people will play untill they get sick of the cheats, and then move on to something else, or go back to wow or doody4 where they came from.
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