Goon Haven - News, Info, Etc

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  • I don't think anyone is talking about that kind of balance. What I meant in my post was assuming that everyone was at the same level in one game. If everyone is bad, then the gameplay and balance thereof is going to be drastically different than if everyone is good. A bunch of good players on Thin Ice would be a terrible experience. But, a bunch of bad players? That could still be fun for them. It doesn't change the fact than Thin Ice is a bad map; it just makes that fact irrelevant.

    What, specifically, is unbalanced or "bad" about thin ice? The fact that the flag is indoors?
  • That's the typical issue of supposed unbalance, the flag isnt right where a capper can ski in or shrike in and zoom cleanly away with the flag, crash and grab style. What effort does that take? Just because you''ve crashed a shrike 500 times?
  • I honestly think a gametype could be made that's basically CTF without the flag, and players would still have fun. Think about it... Ignore the fact that the flag is on some of these maps (Thin Ice, Archipelago), and suddenly the complaints disappear.
  • I honestly think a gametype could be made that's basically CTF without the flag, and players would still have fun. Think about it... Ignore the fact that the flag is on some of these maps (Thin Ice, Archipelago), and suddenly the complaints disappear.

    That's actually pretty good. I've noticed that there are times where we just ignore the existence of the flag and kill things with our team, which is just as much fun as going for the flag.

    Something like Halo's Team Slayer (I know, I know, I said the H word) is coming to mind. Course, Team Hunters might be closer...
  • I honestly think a gametype could be made that's basically CTF without the flag, and players would still have fun. Think about it... Ignore the fact that the flag is on some of these maps (Thin Ice, Archipelago), and suddenly the complaints disappear.
    that's called deathmatch

    and thin ice deathmatch would be terrible pal. all you need is sun dried
  • I honestly think a gametype could be made that's basically CTF without the flag, and players would still have fun. Think about it... Ignore the fact that the flag is on some of these maps (Thin Ice, Archipelago), and suddenly the complaints disappear.
    that's called deathmatch

    and thin ice deathmatch would be terrible pal. all you need is sun dried

    I personally feel that Deathmatch on Thin Ice would be an excellent idea. The traps of water in the middle of the map would make for some interesting fighting. For example, if someone accidentally fell in, another player could jump into the water and fighting would ensue in the depths of the icy cold still of water. This would be an extremely exciting moment for both players.
  • Halo gets a bad rap. It's fun for what it is. I've loved Bungie since Marathon 1 and will continue to love them. I don't care if that love blinds me!

    I see where the fundamental difference is here. Some of us are playing to win while others are playing for fun (which could also help the win). Competitively I'll play to win, but when I jump on the 64 man and am flying around with theJuice, Varkas, Shazbot, and whoever else, we're just enjoying the air-to-air combat and bombing the shit out of the enemy base, which is hopefully adding some chaos for the enemy team so that THEN our flagcap/baserape teams can do their jobs.
  • I don't think anyone is talking about that kind of balance. What I meant in my post was assuming that everyone was at the same level in one game. If everyone is bad, then the gameplay and balance thereof is going to be drastically different than if everyone is good. A bunch of good players on Thin Ice would be a terrible experience. But, a bunch of bad players? That could still be fun for them. It doesn't change the fact than Thin Ice is a bad map; it just makes that fact irrelevant.

    What, specifically, is unbalanced or "bad" about thin ice? The fact that the flag is indoors?
    yes, among numerous other things.
    flags don't have to be open to grabbing in all directions to be well balanced for the offense (see: dangerous crossing, jagged claw, beggar's run), but any map where the flag is located far indoors and can't quickly be taken out in less than a couple seconds just bogs down the offense and makes it nearly impossible to cap against even just a few competent defenders. Add that to the really crappy terrain and large distances between flagstands, and thin ice is a recipe for disaster, even on a newb server.

    open flagstands generally make the game more exciting, and contrary to what some newbies think, can still be very difficult to cap on against solid defenders. I can guarantee people like blakhart, who apparently think it's really easy to just crash a shrike and grab on an open flag, would never cap against someone like me or any other good defender
  • server seems to get really laggy for me when there are 40+ people on it at once, its usually fine with lower numbers. This happen to anyone else?
    im kinda late responding but yeah this happens to me too
  • What, specifically, is unbalanced or "bad" about thin ice? The fact that the flag is indoors?
    Yes, that's a huge part of it. What you people don't understand is that not every defender is a complete moron. On open flag-stand maps, it only takes one good LD to stop a capper in Classic. It's actually fairly balanced between how good the capper is at capping and how good the defender is at defending. If the defender is a HOF, then on most maps even an open flag-stand becomes unbalanced in favor of defense. Now, increase the player count a bit and you have an interesting and balanced map. Close the flag-stand up, and you have a bad and unbalanced map, because now the offense gains absolutely none of the benefits of Classic's attempt to correctly rebalance Base gameplay - but the defense still gets all of their benefits.
    Giant, un-ski-able maps do the exact same thing.
  • What, specifically, is unbalanced or "bad" about thin ice? The fact that the flag is indoors?
    Yes, that's a huge part of it. What you people don't understand is that not every defender is a complete moron. On open flag-stand maps, it only takes one good LD to stop a capper in Classic. It's actually fairly balanced between how good the capper is at capping and how good the defender is at defending. If the defender is a HOF, then on most maps even an open flag-stand becomes unbalanced in favor of defense. Now, increase the player count a bit and you have an interesting and balanced map. Close the flag-stand up, and you have a bad and unbalanced map, because now the offense gains absolutely none of the benefits of Classic's attempt to correctly rebalance Base gameplay - but the defense still gets all of their benefits.
    Giant, un-ski-able maps do the exact same thing.

    I personally feel that Thin Ice's enclosed flag isn't enclosed enough. My favorite map thus far is Rescalence. It's practically the perfect map. It forces teams to band together into packs of cloakers, shielders, and ammunition-packers alike in order to retrieve the flag from the fiery depth's of the enemy Starwolf team. Once you get out, and you have that transport waiting for you that another player thoughtfully knew you'd require, well, it's a sweet ride back to home base as you stare at your fellow passengers, and comrades in the eyes....and they're thinking exactly what you're thinking "Yes, we did just do that...we just capped on Rescalence."
  • I had an idea for a gametype that I think would rock a few years back, be a bit different from the same ol' CTF, and would actually benefit from the no flag concept...

    Ever played that old Atari game Scorched Earth? It's a two player game where two tanks would take turns firing at one another. You would shoot by choosing your angle, and the power of your shot. Now take that concept, and add it to Tribes 2 gameplay.

    Two teams, each has a special MPB that can only be damaged by the artillery from the other MPB. The teams each have a couple pre-game minutes to decide on their commander (the player that controls the MPB), and to deploy their MPB. The MPB's need to be supplied with ammunition to fire, as well as fuel to move if necessary (supplies to repair the MPB may, or may not be an idea, depending on balancing issues). These cost points, which are earned by the team by killing other players and attacking their base.

    Now, when firing the MPB, the commander chooses a horizontal range (anywhere from 0-360, 0 and 360 degrees being north, 90 east, 180 south, 270 west), a verticle range (0-90 degrees), and a power of the shot (0-10, decimals included in ranges and power). If possible, wind may or may not be a factor, and a bit of smoke coming from the top of the MPB could give wind velocity and direction information. The commander requires feedback from his team on the enemy vehicle's position. Each time a shot from a team's vehicle lands, it leaves a team beacon marker on the ground until the next shot lands.

    The vehicle materials can only be carried by medium or heavy armor. A drop zone is designated in each map for them at the team's base. Also, vehicle materials can be stolen by the enemy team.

    Seems like it could be fun. The problem I see would be with the commander's job, since they wouldn't be able to fight because of the gameplay mechanics. Being able to see where their team's targetting lasers are shot or beacons are placed could remove much of the team feedback necessary in the game. Of course, with beacons popping up everywhere (as they do in Tribes 2), this might not be a problem, and targetting the enemy's vehicle might encourage some more defensive play anyways.
  • server seems to get really laggy for me when there are 40+ people on it at once, its usually fine with lower numbers. This happen to anyone else?
    im kinda late responding but yeah this happens to me too

    What are your network settings (in the Options)? I've only seen this with a BUNCH of people on screen in close proximity. I'm talking 20-30 people on screen at once. I don't think the netcode can handle all of it accurately, especially if there is some high speed action. If I'm not watching all the action... it's as smooth at 68 people as it is with 6 people. I've verified this with others, but will still try to change anything I can to alleviate that problem. The server's packetrate is set to the hard-coded max (32/450).

    Basically people start warping a bit when the client is receiving too much (or possibly NOT ENOUGH) information at once. That's my guess anyway.
  • edited January 2009
    What, specifically, is unbalanced or "bad" about thin ice? The fact that the flag is indoors?
    Yes, that's a huge part of it. What you people don't understand is that not every defender is a complete moron. On open flag-stand maps, it only takes one good LD to stop a capper in Classic. It's actually fairly balanced between how good the capper is at capping and how good the defender is at defending. If the defender is a HOF, then on most maps even an open flag-stand becomes unbalanced in favor of defense. Now, increase the player count a bit and you have an interesting and balanced map. Close the flag-stand up, and you have a bad and unbalanced map, because now the offense gains absolutely none of the benefits of Classic's attempt to correctly rebalance Base gameplay - but the defense still gets all of their benefits.
    Giant, un-ski-able maps do the exact same thing.

    I get what you're saying man, but I have to disagree and here's why:

    My general opinion on Tribes 2 in regards to flag cappers is that they are far, far too lazy to adapt to many situations. They suffer from massive tunnel vision: Swoop in, Grab flag, repeat until successful. There are MANY MANY ways to accomplish this feat other than jumping out of your shrike at 300kph or skiing down a hill at the same speed. If the flag isn't begging to be plucked from the stand, they complain.

    If flag cappers would just *gasp* WAIT for a solid opportunity and use something other than light w/ energy pack, they might be more successful. You don't even have to be coordinated, but just choose your timing. Get a cloak pack or SJ pack, get in a grav bike. Wait someplace around a hill for a heavy to ski into their base or for a havoc to drop on it. Once the gens go down, drive up, park next to the now open windows (the shields will hopefully be down) and grab the flag. Instead of waiting 3-5 mins for an opportunity, cappers choose to try for quantity over quality caps. "If I try for the flag 100 times, maybe I will grab it 30 and get away with it once." Then they whine when the heavy is waiting at the door for them to kill them.


    Heh, I capped the flag on SlapDash the other day using a Medium skin with a repair pack. I drove up in a tank, flew in grabbed it, tossed all my flares and got into my tank and drove it back. This was a map MEANT for the traditional capper and look how I did it. Tribes is meant for thinking on your feet. Everyone here praises it for this, yet if the flag can't be out in the open and requires a different tactic, everyone gets upset. Why?

    Not every map is meant to be capped out. I enjoy games that comes down to touches as much as any other game as long as teams are relatively balanced and maps do not overpower one side vs the other.

    Personally I think the people that define themselves as flag cappers are often a bit egotistical and always want to be the center of the show. If someone caps the flag, 75% of the time it's because either your team intelligently backed you up, or the other team was too lazy to chase you. Having indoor flags doesn't change anything except increase that % another 20 points.

    PS... Sorry if I rambled, I am not all with it today.
  • "I can guarantee people like blakhart, who apparently think it's really easy to just crash a shrike and grab on an open flag, would never cap against someone like me or any other good defender"


    seen it time and again pal
    how are you going to defend a flag when youre dead and the capper sails in at over 200kph and makes a grab?
  • "I can guarantee people like blakhart, who apparently think it's really easy to just crash a shrike and grab on an open flag, would never cap against someone like me or any other good defender"

    seen it time and again pal
    how are you going to defend a flag when youre dead and the capper sails in at over 200kph and makes a grab?

    I don't know who Blak is quoting, but back in the hayday of EWO, if the punk shrike capper couldn't screw you over, he just asked his pals on TS to get into a bomber. The bomber suicide bombed your flag, crushing everything even remotely close and then the capper either came in just after in a shrike or was sitting in the TG spot of the bomber and ejected to swoop in. Aside from parking 2 Tanks next to the flag in different spots (which is also a somewhat cheap tactic- a last ditch effort to preserve your flag), nothing really stops them.
  • "I can guarantee people like blakhart, who apparently think it's really easy to just crash a shrike and grab on an open flag, would never cap against someone like me or any other good defender"


    seen it time and again pal
    how are you going to defend a flag when youre dead and the capper sails in at over 200kph and makes a grab?
    LOL this is priceless. I just love it when scrubs try to talk to top-level players as if they are even remotely on the same level. I'd be surprised if you've ever even seen a player half as good as projectile.
  • actualy ive never seen him play and dont care to, this competiton stuff is way out of my league, i just play for fun, unlike you _real_ _serious_ _players_ but one thing im certain of is players like you killed t2
  • This thread is hillarious.

    We're back to player skill again and some of you guys don't actually understand what players are capable of in a team environment.

    Can't wait until competition or a tournament. Having 7v7 back would be a good start.
  • Can we stop the constant slap fighting? The community will turn back to lifeless shit if "videogame veterans of old" don't stop aggravating/pissing off the new people. Let people play what they want to play. That's why games like Half-Life and other SDK'd games are so popular and get so much play time... people make and play whatever they want. This community is like the M.U.G.E.N. one, excuse me, whatever is LEFT of that community:

    "Play my game the way I want to play it or GTFO... oh where did everyone go?"

    There are plenty of ways that multiple playstyles can be catered to, but there won't be PLENTY OF PLAYERS if people don't stop killing off the populace.
  • The community will turn back to lifeless shit if "videogame veterans of old" don't stop aggravating/pissing off the new people.
    Hahaha... that was pretty funny.
  • And we now return you to Goon Haven....

    thebeaz, don't let it go anywhere, I love this server! It's got the large amount of players, it's got kickass maps, the 32-man has a blaster that doubles as a shotgun, and it has some of the best, and worst (a good balance) players I've ever seen. And so what if I'm not the most amazing Tribes player since sliced bread, I'm having more fun than I ever did on |SKB| Renegades in Tribes 1, and that's what this should be about. We have people slitting each others' throats because some people "play better" than others. Has everyone forgotten that a game is something people do to have fun?

    Oh, and Fountains of Paradise and A River Runs Near It (think that was the name) are too similar. Keep Fountains.
  • Seriously, thebeaz is right.

    If you don't like a map, don't feel so self-righteous that people aren't play the "right" maps or the "right" way. Just find something else to do ingame that you like, suck it up and be a team player and do one of the dirty jobs like turret defense or just come back when a different map is on.

    Live and let live... until you get a spinfusor in your hand ;)
  • actualy ive never seen him play and dont care to, this competiton stuff is way out of my league, i just play for fun, unlike you _real_ _serious_ _players_ but one thing im certain of is players like you killed t2
    Good, then stop trying to talk about capping/defense/balance/etc as if you know what you are talking about and we'll all get along just fine.

    As I've already said, Goon Haven is good as is - or at least, as it was a few days ago; I've heard that it's been completely ruined since then by removing mine-disc and god knows what else. It's one thing to prefer different maps for different styles of play, but when you start removing elements from the gameplay in order to lessen the gap between bad players and good players, pretty soon you will be playing Version2.
  • I had an idea for a gametype that I think would rock a few years back, be a bit different from the same ol' CTF, and would actually benefit from the no flag concept...

    Ever played that old Atari game Scorched Earth? It's a two player game where two tanks would take turns firing at one another. You would shoot by choosing your angle, and the power of your shot. Now take that concept, and add it to Tribes 2 gameplay.

    Two teams, each has a special MPB that can only be damaged by the artillery from the other MPB. The teams each have a couple pre-game minutes to decide on their commander (the player that controls the MPB), and to deploy their MPB. The MPB's need to be supplied with ammunition to fire, as well as fuel to move if necessary (supplies to repair the MPB may, or may not be an idea, depending on balancing issues). These cost points, which are earned by the team by killing other players and attacking their base.

    Now, when firing the MPB, the commander chooses a horizontal range (anywhere from 0-360, 0 and 360 degrees being north, 90 east, 180 south, 270 west), a verticle range (0-90 degrees), and a power of the shot (0-10, decimals included in ranges and power). If possible, wind may or may not be a factor, and a bit of smoke coming from the top of the MPB could give wind velocity and direction information. The commander requires feedback from his team on the enemy vehicle's position. Each time a shot from a team's vehicle lands, it leaves a team beacon marker on the ground until the next shot lands.

    The vehicle materials can only be carried by medium or heavy armor. A drop zone is designated in each map for them at the team's base. Also, vehicle materials can be stolen by the enemy team.

    Seems like it could be fun. The problem I see would be with the commander's job, since they wouldn't be able to fight because of the gameplay mechanics. Being able to see where their team's targetting lasers are shot or beacons are placed could remove much of the team feedback necessary in the game. Of course, with beacons popping up everywhere (as they do in Tribes 2), this might not be a problem, and targetting the enemy's vehicle might encourage some more defensive play anyways.
    I like this idea. One change: rather than using points to get ammo/fuel, and killing players to get points, I'd like it better if you actually had to find the stuff on the map and bring it back to your MPB.

    Other than that, I'm not sure how well that wind feature could be implemented.

    I might try to make this mod eventually next time I get bored and feel like doing some T2 coding.

    Heh, of all people. :D

    Yeah, it's a solid concept, could use some work. Your idea is a way to simplify things quite elegantly. Maybe a central drop zone in the map... it would stay highly contested, keep the carnage going. Custom maps would solve some of the complications, but it'd be nice if it could be implemented into some of the larger CTF maps that already exist.

    Some play testing would be necessary, but if each team had two or three MPB's instead, it might add to the strategy a bit. You could move one that's been targetted while firing with another. Also, I definitely think splash damage should be included in the vehicles' shells, but a direct hit should be an instant, or almost instant kill.

    As for the wind, I know that particles are affected by the wind, but I'm not sure if it's possible to make a particle projectile that's affected. Wind would be optional of course, but it could add that extra chaos to make things a little more interesting.

    I could totally see some players getting together to figure out the math behind everything, and finding a method of triangulating the enemy's exact location. Be pretty sweet.
  • edited January 2009
    actualy ive never seen him play and dont care to, this competiton stuff is way out of my league, i just play for fun, unlike you _real_ _serious_ _players_ but one thing im certain of is players like you killed t2
    Good, then stop trying to talk about capping/defense/balance/etc as if you know what you are talking about and we'll all get along just fine.

    As I've already said, Goon Haven is good as is - or at least, as it was a few days ago; I've heard that it's been completely ruined since then by removing mine-disc and god knows what else. It's one thing to prefer different maps for different styles of play, but when you start removing elements from the gameplay in order to lessen the gap between bad players and good players, pretty soon you will be playing Version2.

    That's an option of Classic 1.5.2 and only exists on the 32 man (aka the test bed for whatever... as has always been said) along with dumbfire missiles, shotgun blasters, etc. It's the "strange settings and maps the admin is testing" server. If you had a question about that, this is the thread to ask. So ask next time instead of just listening to hearsay!

    The 64-man is running vanilla 1.5.2 with no gameplay modifications other than those inherent with classic. The settings you are talking about accidentally existed on the 64 man for about 6 hours yesterday.

    edit: Also "completely ruined"? Please drop the hyperbole and exaggeration and just say "People like me and I don't like those changes". If everyone would just tone it down a bit this would be a lot easier to manage.

    edit2: Just to clarify further, a Goon on SA said "What are these changes? I don't like that..." and that's when I realized the settings were mistakenly on there still. He didn't have to go on a rant about "newbs" or skill or anything of that nature. He posted information where I would see it and I fixed the glitch.
  • Seriously, thebeaz is right.

    If you don't like a map, don't feel so self-righteous that people aren't play the "right" maps or the "right" way. Just find something else to do ingame that you like, suck it up and be a team player and do one of the dirty jobs like turret defense or just come back when a different map is on.

    Live and let live... until you get a spinfusor in your hand ;)

    no kidding the beeze is right on. It doesn't matter if the way some people suggest is the far better way of goign about winning. IT doesn't matter if the way they suggest ALWAYS works better than the way the other people are talking about. It doesn't matter if their opinion is based on 1000x more evidence and consideration. It's not better it's just different and the kind of elitism where the competent and decent players try to force guys like thebeeze or that blakhart to do things in better ways just drives people off.

    I'm with them on maps like thin ice.

    A well coordinated offense should have no trouble capping once or maybe even twice on a defense of AFKs and people in their escape menus adjusting their settings. The likelihood of even 2 coordinated defensive players (which would be all that was necessary to shut down anything sent their way) on goon server is so incredibly low that we do NOT need to consider such possibilities.

    Maps where it takes 6+ highly coordinated offense to defeat 2 clueless defense are what t2 is all about. If t2 had more maps where noone wanted to go offense because it just meant getting annihilated by the other teams 25 of 30 players on defense then I'm sure the game never would have "died".

  • The 64-man is running vanilla 1.5.2 with no gameplay modifications other than those inherent with classic. The settings you are talking about accidentally existed on the 64 man for about 6 hours yesterday.

    Would that explain how one of the newer maps was in the 64-man? Now I can't remember what the name was... rainy, low visibility, plenty of water, but a connected land route. One vpad per side. StormDash, I think... other than people being morons at the vpad sometimes, I think that one went really well with the large amount of people.

    As for map balance, I think some of us (probably me included) are missing a bigger picture. Each and every map doesn't need to be balanced between offense and defense. But, if one map favors offense, it should have a corresponding map that favors defense, thus balancing overall. It's like flipping a coin, you won't get perfect balance every time, but eventually the pattern of balance can, and must, occur.

    [off topic] Hate that I get such a bad connection with the college wifi... want to get back on the 32-man and explore some more.
  • tons of wonderful sarcasm

    You are right, everyone else is wrong.

    Again your argument is coming from the competitive side of things. What you're complaining about happens in EVERY ONLINE GAME. Organized beats pubs. And yes, a map like Recalesence (or however you spell that stupid mission) is very annoying as the enemy team could easily turtle and only the finger of God could get through. I GET that, okay? That's an obvious one.

    Look, I didn't play Tribes for 8 years non-stop. I've played hundreds of games since I quit Tribes. I'm a gamer just like you. I understand EXACTLY what and why you're complaining, but the way you're going about doing it doesn't help and keeps leading to off-topic shit. There are other games that I completely dominate in and am constantly on top of the leaderboards... but I'm still not an asshole about it! Maybe my career as a network engineer helps me with this. There are people that know next to nothing compared to me and others that know SO MUCH MORE... it teaches you humility.

    Remember this is a game. The winner of a map doesn't solve the worlds problems. It's ok to have fun. Also stop ignoring that I've said "Tournaments will be on TWL balanced maps in a controlled environment". THAT is where any form of balance matters. Pubs are for killing time and having fun. I would open my 50-man ventrilo up to the general TN public if I didn't think it would be filled up with garbage like this.

    Also when a company abandons a game it is dead, not "dead". The community is trying to resurrect the game and the armchair gladiators that have steadfastly defended the honor of Tribes are sure trying their hardest to keep them away.

    Start a server and ban everyone you don't like and play only the maps you want. Make your own little Utopia. This thread is not about THAT server.
    Would that explain how one of the newer maps was in the 64-man? Now I can't remember what the name was... rainy, low visibility, plenty of water, but a connected land route. One vpad per side. StormDash, I think... other than people being morons at the vpad sometimes, I think that one went really well with the large amount of people.

    Yes the maps are on there purposefully. I did a total re-work of Goon Haven 64 to update classic to 1.5.2 and get Evo Admin 1.2.3c properly working as well.
  • Would that explain how one of the newer maps was in the 64-man? Now I can't remember what the name was... rainy, low visibility, plenty of water, but a connected land route. One vpad per side. StormDash, I think... other than people being morons at the vpad sometimes, I think that one went really well with the large amount of people.

    Yes the maps are on there purposefully. I did a total re-work of Goon Haven 64 to update classic to 1.5.2 and get Evo Admin 1.2.3c properly working as well.

    Sweet, keep the awesomesauce a-flowin!

    [EDIT] I'm 4 for 4 with lost ping packets. Does Goon Haven just not respond to pings from commandline, or is my connection just that crappy today?
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